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gourami
F1 Driver
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 856
Location: S Y D N E Y
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 Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 05:04 Post subject: Webber Stays At Red Bull For 2013 |
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Oh well, the Ferrari fantasy will have to be suspended for another year.
Alan Jones, 1980 WC, commented on TV last Sunday (in Australia) that he himself regretted not taking up the limited race offer he received from Ferrari in 1981 and thought Webber should seriously consider driving for Ferrari before he leaves F1.
"Everyone would love to drive for Ferrari."
Still, Webber's much stronger this year (without blown diffuser or better use of tyres or both) versus last and, who knows?, he might yet still be WC driving for Red Bull.
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Watching F1 since 1998... trackside at Silverstone, Shanghai and Melbourne. |
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kraut
F1 Driver
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 799
Location: Vancouver BC/Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 20:49 Post subject: |
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Good news for Mark. This will give him the 100+% support by his
team. I am sure RBR, like all other teams would hate to see the #1
move to a rival team ... and in my book the best chance for the WDC
counts far more than wearing the red overall.
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Podge 90
F2 Racer
Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Posts: 486
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 23:13 Post subject: |
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In this entrepreneurial age of the Red Bulls and when the past counts for very little in a sport that moves so fast, is that "Ferrari dream" still true? They haven't had the best car for years, have a history plagued with back-door politics and dubious on-track antics and are renowned for giving one driver the full spa treatment while the other is lucky to get a second glance to check how he is doing......and yet there is massive pressure on him to perform well.
When young drivers are supported the moment they slip out the womb by particular teams, and they then spend their entire career fighting for that F1 seat, it seems strange for them at the end of it to come out and say "I appreciate everything this team has done for me, but I really want to drive for Ferrari".
I think with the way things are going now, with Red Bull dominating everything, Ferrari being happy to have one driver on the podium and the other in the points, and the emergence of Lotus as a dark horse, I can see the "Ferrari dream" fading in a few years. |
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Burton
Grand Prix Winner
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1374
Location: portugal
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 02:09 Post subject: |
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| Podge 90 wrote: | In this entrepreneurial age of the Red Bulls and when the past counts for very little in a sport that moves so fast, is that "Ferrari dream" still true? They haven't had the best car for years, have a history plagued with back-door politics and dubious on-track antics and are renowned for giving one driver the full spa treatment while the other is lucky to get a second glance to check how he is doing......and yet there is massive pressure on him to perform well.
When young drivers are supported the moment they slip out the womb by particular teams, and they then spend their entire career fighting for that F1 seat, it seems strange for them at the end of it to come out and say "I appreciate everything this team has done for me, but I really want to drive for Ferrari".
I think with the way things are going now, with Red Bull dominating everything, Ferrari being happy to have one driver on the podium and the other in the points, and the emergence of Lotus as a dark horse, I can see the "Ferrari dream" fading in a few years. |
I'm inclined to agree a bit.
Hell, I'm in my 20's, been following the sport since I was 10 or so, and grew up thinking Ferrari is the Galactic Empire of F1   Of course I'm just a fan, but at least a few of the lads my age or younger who are now racing drivers my age might've grown up with a similar view of things, as fans. Lewis of course has been McLaren's since he was little, while Seb might have a connection because of Schumi, since he's German..
If it's possible for some fans to grow up not caring much about them, I guess it could be some way for those in the action too..of course drivers can't exactly alienate any team who might provide seats, but in terms of that complete emotional/irrational charge of "zomg Ferrari zomg" you always hear from other generations, I wonder how much it still rings true.
sorry for rambling 
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gourami
F1 Driver
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 856
Location: S Y D N E Y
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 07:45 Post subject: |
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...well, looks like Hamilton will be staying at McLaren or replacing Schumi.
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Watching F1 since 1998... trackside at Silverstone, Shanghai and Melbourne. |
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Podge 90
F2 Racer
Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Posts: 486
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:12 Post subject: |
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| Burton wrote: | | Podge 90 wrote: | In this entrepreneurial age of the Red Bulls and when the past counts for very little in a sport that moves so fast, is that "Ferrari dream" still true? They haven't had the best car for years, have a history plagued with back-door politics and dubious on-track antics and are renowned for giving one driver the full spa treatment while the other is lucky to get a second glance to check how he is doing......and yet there is massive pressure on him to perform well.
When young drivers are supported the moment they slip out the womb by particular teams, and they then spend their entire career fighting for that F1 seat, it seems strange for them at the end of it to come out and say "I appreciate everything this team has done for me, but I really want to drive for Ferrari".
I think with the way things are going now, with Red Bull dominating everything, Ferrari being happy to have one driver on the podium and the other in the points, and the emergence of Lotus as a dark horse, I can see the "Ferrari dream" fading in a few years. |
I'm inclined to agree a bit.
Hell, I'm in my 20's, been following the sport since I was 10 or so, and grew up thinking Ferrari is the Galactic Empire of F1 Of course I'm just a fan, but at least a few of the lads my age or younger who are now racing drivers my age might've grown up with a similar view of things, as fans. Lewis of course has been McLaren's since he was little, while Seb might have a connection because of Schumi, since he's German..
If it's possible for some fans to grow up not caring much about them, I guess it could be some way for those in the action too..of course drivers can't exactly alienate any team who might provide seats, but in terms of that complete emotional/irrational charge of "zomg Ferrari zomg" you always hear from other generations, I wonder how much it still rings true.
sorry for rambling |
We came to F1 about the same age and time then! Ferrari were literally the unbeatable force in the entire world of sport when I started watching, so along with the history, their success is part of the appeal. But not only can I not see Ferrari repeating that same kind of success, I can't see anyone repeating it.
Take this season; 5 different teams won the first 5 races. Whilst you could say that in this unpredictable era history and sustained past success have a kind of intangible meaning/appeal, you could also say that Ferrari will never live up to what they used to be.
A Ferrari seat used to effectively convert into a Championship (if you were the number 1, at least), but when it's like now, when everyone is winning, surely it'll become less about who you drive for and more about what you drive? You win, or you don't. History means very little in that regard, particularly when the drivers are getting younger and younger and know nothing other than winning.
I don't know, I think Ferrari are losing the image of guaranteed success (aren't McLaren more successful on average?) and when that happens I can really see the "dream" slipping.
But on t'other hand I might be underestimating the effect Ferrari has on the rest of motorsport like GT racing etc, and I don't think you can discount the effect of their road cars. They are still at the very top of the game. They even build some pretty good rollercoasters!
"I'm a Ferrari Formula One driver" would be a great chat-up line though.
And there's nowt wrong with rambling....  |
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White Lightning
Site Admin
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 5990
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 15:01 Post subject: |
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| Podge 90 wrote: |
Take this season; 5 different teams won the first 5 races. Whilst you could say that in this unpredictable era history and sustained past success have a kind of intangible meaning/appeal, you could also say that Ferrari will never live up to what they used to be.
A Ferrari seat used to effectively convert into a Championship (if you were the number 1, at least), but when it's like now, when everyone is winning, surely it'll become less about who you drive for and more about what you drive? You win, or you don't. History means very little in that regard, particularly when the drivers are getting younger and younger and know nothing other than winning. |
This could have been written pretty much any year between 1980 and 1995 though.
I wasn't around, but I'm pretty sure there'll be people who can confirm that "Will Ferrari ever get back to the top?" was a common question through this period.
I do, however, agree that Ferrari has lost its aura. When you think of Ferrari's past nowadays, even youngsters like me think of the numbers 27 and 28, Latin fire matching that of their exploding engines and John Barnard's sleek if not especially world-beating designs.
Schumacher's era of metronomic dominance just isn't "Italian" and "Ferrari", if that makes sense? It's the same with the road cars, I think. New Ferraris, like Lambos, Porsches and the vast majority of 'hyper' and 'super'cars, do nothing for me, because they are now mere machines, built and designed by other machines.
For starters, a return to the deep, evocative scarlet would help Ferrari no end. Leave that dayglo nonsense to McLaren. |
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Anfield5
World Champion
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 5070
Location: NEW PLYMOUTH; New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 20:45 Post subject: |
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| White Lightning wrote: | | Podge 90 wrote: |
Take this season; 5 different teams won the first 5 races. Whilst you could say that in this unpredictable era history and sustained past success have a kind of intangible meaning/appeal, you could also say that Ferrari will never live up to what they used to be.
A Ferrari seat used to effectively convert into a Championship (if you were the number 1, at least), but when it's like now, when everyone is winning, surely it'll become less about who you drive for and more about what you drive? You win, or you don't. History means very little in that regard, particularly when the drivers are getting younger and younger and know nothing other than winning. |
This could have been written pretty much any year between 1980 and 1995 though.
I wasn't around, but I'm pretty sure there'll be people who can confirm that "Will Ferrari ever get back to the top?" was a common question through this period.
I do, however, agree that Ferrari has lost its aura. When you think of Ferrari's past nowadays, even youngsters like me think of the numbers 27 and 28, Latin fire matching that of their exploding engines and John Barnard's sleek if not especially world-beating designs.
Schumacher's era of metronomic dominance just isn't "Italian" and "Ferrari", if that makes sense? It's the same with the road cars, I think. New Ferraris, like Lambos, Porsches and the vast majority of 'hyper' and 'super'cars, do nothing for me, because they are now mere machines, built and designed by other machines.
For starters, a return to the deep, evocative scarlet would help Ferrari no end. Leave that dayglo nonsense to McLaren. |
Absolutely, there were long periods of time when Ferrari were lucky to win two race per year, there were years when they didn't even get close to the front (1980 springs to mind, when after winning the title with Jody and having Gilles finish second with 6 wins between them in 79. 1980 saw them scrape together a paltry 8 points for the season). It wasn't until the 90's that they really started to show true class again. Sure there were the odd decent seasons with Berger, Alesi, Arnoux etc but nothing approaching dominance
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The Rumble Strip
Grand Prix Winner
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 18:26 Post subject: |
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No question that in true Aussie Grit style, Webber has made the right call here.
I do think there is something in the lure of driving for Ferrari and given his supposed decent relationship with Alonso, it is a deal that could have worked out.
However, we know Mark has a tendency to speak his mind when things are not going his way and that's where he would encounter trouble at the Scuderia, who will not shirk in seeing Fernando as top dog.
Red Bull are bound to be in more or less the same position next season, he knows his team well and I bet he will have a better season with them than he might have had with Ferrari.
No brainer. |
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leonpmu
Kart Champion
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
Posts: 93
Location: Mauritius
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 20:32 Post subject: |
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| The Rumble Strip wrote: | No question that in true Aussie Grit style, Webber has made the right call here.
I do think there is something in the lure of driving for Ferrari and given his supposed decent relationship with Alonso, it is a deal that could have worked out.
However, we know Mark has a tendency to speak his mind when things are not going his way and that's where he would encounter trouble at the Scuderia, who will not shirk in seeing Fernando as top dog.
Red Bull are bound to be in more or less the same position next season, he knows his team well and I bet he will have a better season with them than he might have had with Ferrari.
No brainer. |
Couldn't agree more mate, well said. Here have a beer on me. |
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qml
World Champion
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 3386
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:29 Post subject: |
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| The Rumble Strip wrote: | No question that in true Aussie Grit style, Webber has made the right call here.
I do think there is something in the lure of driving for Ferrari and given his supposed decent relationship with Alonso, it is a deal that could have worked out.
However, we know Mark has a tendency to speak his mind when things are not going his way and that's where he would encounter trouble at the Scuderia, who will not shirk in seeing Fernando as top dog.
Red Bull are bound to be in more or less the same position next season, he knows his team well and I bet he will have a better season with them than he might have had with Ferrari.
No brainer. |
I think he made a gross mistake.
He has forgotten that until this year, where Vettel is doing badly that he is in better favour, should that change then way he will be treated will also change.
Red Bull for now have only one driver in mind and that is Vettel.
Without knowing what transpired during their negotiations, it would be safe to say that he would have had been treated better as a number 2 at Ferrari and probably be paid more.
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godragonsgo
Kart Champion
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 06:35 Post subject: |
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| Burton wrote: | | Podge 90 wrote: | In this entrepreneurial age of the Red Bulls and when the past counts for very little in a sport that moves so fast, is that "Ferrari dream" still true? They haven't had the best car for years, have a history plagued with back-door politics and dubious on-track antics and are renowned for giving one driver the full spa treatment while the other is lucky to get a second glance to check how he is doing......and yet there is massive pressure on him to perform well.
When young drivers are supported the moment they slip out the womb by particular teams, and they then spend their entire career fighting for that F1 seat, it seems strange for them at the end of it to come out and say "I appreciate everything this team has done for me, but I really want to drive for Ferrari".
I think with the way things are going now, with Red Bull dominating everything, Ferrari being happy to have one driver on the podium and the other in the points, and the emergence of Lotus as a dark horse, I can see the "Ferrari dream" fading in a few years. |
I'm inclined to agree a bit.
Hell, I'm in my 20's, been following the sport since I was 10 or so, and grew up thinking Ferrari is the Galactic Empire of F1 Of course I'm just a fan, but at least a few of the lads my age or younger who are now racing drivers my age might've grown up with a similar view of things, as fans. Lewis of course has been McLaren's since he was little, while Seb might have a connection because of Schumi, since he's German..
If it's possible for some fans to grow up not caring much about them, I guess it could be some way for those in the action too..of course drivers can't exactly alienate any team who might provide seats, but in terms of that complete emotional/irrational charge of "zomg Ferrari zomg" you always hear from other generations, I wonder how much it still rings true.
sorry for rambling |
When I started watching F1 (1980) Ferrari were always thought of as bumbling idiots, a bit like some are saying McLaren look like now. Yet despite constantly shooting themselves in the foot Ferrari always retained that lustre. They were always the team to drive even if they were at times no more than a middle of the pack team.
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GregorV
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
Posts: 3427
Location: Ajdovscina, Slovenia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 07:59 Post subject: |
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| godragonsgo wrote: | | Yet despite constantly shooting themselves in the foot Ferrari always retained that lustre. |
I think that was part of the charm of Ferrari  .
I think Mark made the right call. I think he realizes that, while Sebastian is no doubt the primary focus of Red Bull, Mark is (apart from a couple odd calls in the past) being given the support needed to perform. I think it is also clear to him that Sebastian has that little bit more raw speed than Mark (and probably just about everyone in F1), but that this is something that focus, grit and determination can overcome over the course of a season. At least that is how I interpret this season and the reasons why Mark decided to stay at Red Bull.
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bewildered_jim
Grand Prix Winner
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 2243
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 19:32 Post subject: |
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I've said it before and I'll say it again; McLaren are not useless for occasionally getting a pitstop wrong or not consistently matching RBR. They have routinely beaten Ferrari and Mercedes in the constructors championship, and noone considers them 'bumbling'.
Vent over, for now.
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"With its F1 coverage from 2012 set to play second fiddle, the BBC promises to get fans close to the true experience - of being Mark Webber" #HIGNFY @don_lyall |
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