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Pump Daddy J
F1 Test Driver
Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 618
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 Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 00:16 Post subject: F1 without jacques |
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I'll give JV one thing, his got some hardcore fans out there!
Hope springs eternal, but it's hard to see him coming back, but if he does, good luck to him I say!
Personally I feel poor old HH still deserves a ride somewhere based on talent but not only has he gone, it seems like no one misses him, which I personally find a bit sad. While not a "top pro", I always thought he raced hard and had "pro" pace. But he's gone without a trace or a murmer. Foe what it's worth, I wish him all the best as well. |
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The Figurehead
Superlicence Holder
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Athens, Hellas
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 02:21 Post subject: |
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All i have to say about Olivier, is that he's too unlucky... Back in '97, when Prost was on a high, he broke his legs at Canada. I'm sure that accident affected his career. Next year, the AP01 was a dog... Things improved a bit in '99. After his testing time at McLaren, he suffered millions of mechanical failures in the wheel of BAR. Now, Toyota underperforms. Things will rapidly improve with Gascoyne, but who can guarantee OP's future there?
His win in Monaco '96, is unforgettable!! 
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nojvnof1
F1 Test Driver
Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 706
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 07:44 Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Qantor1 wrote: | The difference between OP and JV, is that one is a WDC and can still be, while OP will always be a good F1 pilot period (like so many we have these days). And I remember each year when they were testing the new car... OP was saying things like : The new car feels good, Honda made a good job and so on... JV was saying : This is a bad car, there is no way we are going to acheive something good with this.
To some, it may seems that OP was a good team player and JV wasn't, but in reality, OP had never been in top class F1 team or car. JV was right year after year... JV is a true racer and a WDC, he just wanted to push the team to an upper level, instead of staying in the middle of the pack.
To win a championship you must have a very good car and a hell of a good pilot. |
JV may have looked like a complete prat when he came out and bagged the car whilst Olivier was praising it, but fact is that the 2001 and 2002 cars, were two of the worst F1 cars ever. Their aero efficiency was pathetic whilst the Honda was nothing but heavy and very unreliable. At least when JV said the car was bad, he was right, it was. As for Ollie, I have nothing but praise for his relaxed, motivating and positive attitude. It's a shame he broke his legs in Canada as he could have been a race winning contender with that car, but unfortunately Prost slid into oblivion, thankfully McLaren helped him rescue his career. Definitely a driver who should have more wins against his name.
About that f1rejects article, I found it to be an excellent, unbiased and fair piece. Praise was given where necessary as was criticism. I expected it to be yet another anti JV article but it was brilliant. I agreed with most if not all the points they made. However I too would find it demotivating to be promised everything by Honda, designers etc,but then left floundering by pathetic excused for F1 cars year after year. If I recall correctly, the 1999 car was made from lightened Indycar parts!!! Now thats seriously poor, but that's the risk JV took and unfortunately it didnt work. like JPM said, sh!t happens!!
Hoosier, liked the one about richards being his front jack man, now that put a smile on my face, as it most probably would put one on JV's if he saw that  
shaun
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Gilles and Jacques - The Villeneuve Dynasty
"Humanity makes itself unnecessarily complicated simply by not telling it like it is" - Jacques Villeneuve |
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r11co
F3 Racer
Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 269
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 15:47 Post subject: Re: ... |
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| nojvnof1 wrote: | | OP had never been in top class F1 team or car. JV was right year after year... JV is a true racer and a WDC, he just wanted to push the team to an upper level, instead of staying in the middle of the pack. |
It's amazing how many JV fans suffer the same trait as he. Speaking honestly held beliefs that are factually inaccurate. As has already been pointed out, Olivier Panis came to BAR from McLaren after working there during the Hakkinen era as a test driver. OP knew exactly what a good car was, for goodness sake!!! 
| nojvnof1 wrote: |
JV may have looked like a complete prat when he came out and bagged the car whilst Olivier was praising it, but fact is that the 2001 and 2002 cars, were two of the worst F1 cars ever. Their aero efficiency was pathetic whilst the Honda was nothing but heavy and very unreliable. At least when JV said the car was bad, he was right, it was.
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I disagree. Once again Jacques was very good at forcing his negative opinions across. If Olivier Panis was making kind noises about the car it was because he knew that was the best way to motivate the people who's job it was to improve it. It worked - the BAR progressed up the grid while Panis was doing his technical work on it, despite Jacques' mouthing off.
| nojvnof1 wrote: |
Hoosier, liked the one about richards being his front jack man, now that put a smile on my face, as it most probably would put one on JV's if he saw that
shaun |
Jacques' devoted fans need someone to blame, and it shouldn't be David Richards. Results speak for themselves, and under Richards' patronage BAR have progressed further still. If there was anything wrong with the BAR in the pre-Richards era it was because the previous management (one Craig Pollok) was making a mess of things. The car didn't just materialise in front of Pollok - he choose the technical partners when the team was formed so he deserves to carry the can for the chassis being rubbish and the aero being substandard.
Richards brought in Geoff Willis because he was aware of the shortcomings of the chassis - nuff said.[/quote] |
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The Figurehead
Superlicence Holder
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Athens, Hellas
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 16:21 Post subject: Re: ... |
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| r11co wrote: | | Richards brought in Geoff Willis because he was aware of the shortcomings of the chassis - nuff said. |
Cough cough...
I regret to inform you that POLLOCK hired back in November '01, where he was still at the helm of BAR. Richards hasn't made any changes in the technical dept.
Talking of managememt, surely Pollock made a lot of mistakes. IMHO the majority of them, were made due to arrogance. But, Pollock had NO real powers. In his days, BAR's management board included a bunch of people with minimal experience in F1, like Reynard. I'd like to let you know that Pollock wasn't able to make a decision on his own, but only after an agreemant with the rest board members (BAT's people included). All in all, BAR's initial management structure was a mess and that's why the team was hampered by in-politics the first years.
But, the most important thing is that Richards DIDN'T hire Willis, who's the only responsible for BAR's on-track progress.
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Qantor1
Kart Champion
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 17:39 Post subject: r11co |
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Don't panic r11co... I made a big mistake on that part  . Don't get me wrong on this... I really like this pilot. OP is a true gentleman to work with, but sometimes you need to shake the team if you want to get better results. It's not by saying that the car is fantastic all the time that you will get upfront when in reality it's the opposite. Sorry, but I'm not a big fan of "we always have to be politically correct"... maybe I'm more on the old school side. 
And if someone says to me : "Look at what MS did, he's a real team player." Yes, it's true, but when MS decided to switch from Benetton to Ferrari, he was not going in a brand new team at the bottom of the sheet. It was Ferrari, the most respected team in the motor sport world. Even at that time Ferrari was 3rd in the 94 and 95 championship : 11 podiums in 94 (5 3rd place, 5 2nd and 1 1st), 11 podiums in 95 : (6 3rd places, 4 2nd places and 1 1st). All in all, they were not at the top, but miles ahead from let's say Tyrell/Yamaha. And when he arrived with Ferrari in 96, not that bad at all, Ferrari achieved the 2nd place in the constructor championship 9 podiums (3 3rd places, 3 2nd and 3 1st).
Now the BAR beginnings... Remember when Raynard was saying "we will be upfront at our first GP..." Well, JV succeeded to finish 3 races over 16 and no points at all. What a contrast...
I may be a JV fan, but first of all I'm an F1 fan. And when I see where F1 is heading, I'm not happy at all  . To see one of the best driver at home because of political reasons... I just don't get it. I'm also unhappy to see that HHF didn't get a seat. The same way, I didn't believe it when I saw Jean Alesi getting out of F1 because of a sponsorship reason.
For someone like me, who saw the 70's, 80's and 90's era, the last couple years were the worst of all (2003 was a bit better...). And it is not because of MS and Ferrari. I think he and his team are the best combinations in the F1 circus right now. IMO, it is more because of all the electronics they put on the car to patch driver's errors, the tire war and the big manufacturers being more committed to their marketing plan. I also hope that Melbourne 2004 will not be a reflection of the rest of the year, because if it is, then this year will be a nightmare. |
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Qantor1
Kart Champion
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 18:57 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Richards brought in Geoff Willis because he was aware of the shortcomings of the chassis |
Just a little note to say that CP is the one who brought in Willis... He succeeds to keep Honda in his team, while Jordan failed. CP is maybe not the best manager in the world, but DR is relying on CP past decisions right now. The only things DR did was to bring JB (it's a good thing), and throwing out the only other WDC we had in that series (not a good thing). |
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r11co
F3 Racer
Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 269
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 20:01 Post subject: |
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OK, hands up - I got it wrong too. Willis did indeed get there before Richards.
However, I do believe that by that point BAT were getting a bit exasperated by the erstwhile Reynard/Pollok administrated shambles that BAR had become, and had a lot to do with the recruitment of both Willis and Dave Richards (Richards already being known to them as the man behind Prodrive who they were sponsoring through their '555' brand). |
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BAR-Talk
Single-Seater Rookie
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 108
Location: Cambridge UK
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 20:51 Post subject: Re: ... |
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| The Figurehead wrote: | | Quote: | | Richards brought in Geoff Willis because he was aware of the shortcomings of the chassis - nuff said. |
I regret to inform you that POLLOCK hired back in November '01, where he was still at the helm of BAR. Richards hasn't made any changes in the technical dept.
But, the most important thing is that Richards DIDN'T hire Willis, who's the only responsible for BAR's on-track progress. |
You're right about Willis, Figurehead, but you're wrong about the technical team - there have been many changes below Willis, and in various places outside of the design office.
I'd also take issue with you saying it's only Willis responsible for improvement - surely it's a team effort? With 650 people split between BAR and Honda, I think 649 people would be quite upset at that comment...
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variante
Karter
Joined: 07 Mar 2004
Posts: 37
Location: Wales
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 22:18 Post subject: |
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F1 without jaques hmmm to sum it up it has been peaceful. 
Nah on a more serious note I aint even noticed he gone that much. coz I never really noticed he was there to begin with apart from the moaning hence the peace.
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KMD
Karter
Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 22:33 Post subject: |
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| variante wrote: | F1 without jaques hmmm to sum it up it has been peaceful.
Nah on a more serious note I aint even noticed he gone that much. coz I never really noticed he was there to begin with apart from the moaning hence the peace. |
Ironic that.
So far, most of the stuff he moaned about, have either been acted upon or proved to be on the mark.
Also, an amazing feat for a "Nobody" to be talked about so much so that on most Bulletin Boards, people are requested not to start new threads concerning one "unknown" INDY500, CART and F1 Champ.
One note of sadness on my path, is that this year's SPA race will be without its No 1 supporter. FLAT OUT .........Jacques .
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In style of Jacques's rein.
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The Figurehead
Superlicence Holder
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Athens, Hellas
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 00:19 Post subject: Re: ... |
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| BAR-Talk.com wrote: | You're right about Willis, Figurehead, but you're wrong about the technical team - there have been many changes below Willis, and in various places outside of the design office.
I'd also take issue with you saying it's only Willis responsible for improvement - surely it's a team effort? With 650 people split between BAR and Honda, I think 649 people would be quite upset at that comment... |
OK.. i forgot to mention that he fired Malcom Oastler and Andy Green (both aerodynamicists). Willem Toet (spelling?) -head of aero dept in Pollock days- must be working for the team though.
F1 is certainly a team sport. But there must be some capable directors in each department, in order to make the rest of the crew work efficiently. One of them, is Geoffry Willis!
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nojvnof1
F1 Test Driver
Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 706
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 06:49 Post subject: Re: ... |
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| r11co wrote: | | nojvnof1 wrote: | | OP had never been in top class F1 team or car. JV was right year after year... JV is a true racer and a WDC, he just wanted to push the team to an upper level, instead of staying in the middle of the pack. |
It's amazing how many JV fans suffer the same trait as he. Speaking honestly held beliefs that are factually inaccurate. As has already been pointed out, Olivier Panis came to BAR from McLaren after working there during the Hakkinen era as a test driver. OP knew exactly what a good car was, for goodness sake!!!
| nojvnof1 wrote: |
JV may have looked like a complete prat when he came out and bagged the car whilst Olivier was praising it, but fact is that the 2001 and 2002 cars, were two of the worst F1 cars ever. Their aero efficiency was pathetic whilst the Honda was nothing but heavy and very unreliable. At least when JV said the car was bad, he was right, it was.
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I disagree. Once again Jacques was very good at forcing his negative opinions across. If Olivier Panis was making kind noises about the car it was because he knew that was the best way to motivate the people who's job it was to improve it. It worked - the BAR progressed up the grid while Panis was doing his technical work on it, despite Jacques' mouthing off.
| nojvnof1 wrote: |
Hoosier, liked the one about richards being his front jack man, now that put a smile on my face, as it most probably would put one on JV's if he saw that
shaun |
Jacques' devoted fans need someone to blame, and it shouldn't be David Richards. Results speak for themselves, and under Richards' patronage BAR have progressed further still. If there was anything wrong with the BAR in the pre-Richards era it was because the previous management (one Craig Pollok) was making a mess of things. The car didn't just materialise in front of Pollok - he choose the technical partners when the team was formed so he deserves to carry the can for the chassis being rubbish and the aero being substandard.
Richards brought in Geoff Willis because he was aware of the shortcomings of the chassis - nuff said. |
[/quote]
First things first, I didn't say you're first paragraph as is pasted. Someone else wrote that. About the second quote, How am i wrong? The 2001 and 2002 cars were pathetic. They lacked aero and the engine was heavy and unreliable. There's no point in calling a chair a table. JV knew the car was crap so he wanted to let the so called experts know they had performed a bad job. Panis did praise the car but what did it get him. In '02 he didnt even finish a race in the first half of the season so I dont see how his praise for the car helped him or the team. If they couldn't handle the truth that they built a bad car then what are they doing there? The car didn't progress that much up the grid. They only performed well in GB because of Michelins lack of inters which helped Bridgestone runners. After that they only managed two 6th places whilst their quali was just sneaking into the top 10. Not that big a gain. OP did know what a good car was, so did JV, but they're drivers, no designers. They can have some input but ultimately they don't pen the car!!
Regarding DR, he hasn't exactly set the world on fire. In '02 the team scored less points that '01 and last season under the old system of points they wouldn't have done much better than the 2000 season, their best prior to '03 with the new points. Results do speak for themselves and they don't show DR doing a better job. The new points system flattered to deceive everyone into thinking they were better but they weren't. CP made a massive error in hiring Oastler, but he rectified it by bringing in Willis. DR has done nothing but inherit the team left by CP and fired a few people, although I must admit the only good thing he did was fire Oastler. It's Willis who deserves most of the praise for helping lift the team, not DR. He's just glorifying himself thanks to CP's work, nothing more nothing less. The rest of the team have done a great job this year but ultimately it's Willis' balls on the line, so he should get lots of credit. As for Honda, when they win, I'll shut up. They've got too proud a tradition to be building heavy and unreliable engines. CP has made some mistakes but he's also made some great decisions. ie. Willis, getting Honda back to F1, then convincing them to remain with the team.
We devoted JV fans speak honestly held beliefs which ARE factually correct on most occasions. JV can't be that washed up or a nobody if people use 4 pages to discuss him. I think it can be agreed that JV is one of the most talked about drivers in the sport, positively or negatively, these discussions prove it.
shaun
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Gilles and Jacques - The Villeneuve Dynasty
"Humanity makes itself unnecessarily complicated simply by not telling it like it is" - Jacques Villeneuve |
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r11co
F3 Racer
Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 269
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 13:09 Post subject: Re: ... |
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| nojvnof1 wrote: |
We devoted JV fans speak honestly held beliefs which ARE factually correct on most occasions. JV can't be that washed up or a nobody if people use 4 pages to discuss him. I think it can be agreed that JV is one of the most talked about drivers in the sport, positively or negatively, these discussions prove it.
shaun |
Talk is cheap, however. I'm a veteran of the ITV-F1 messageboard (RIP) and I have to admit it does surprise me how much more vociferously JV is defended here compared to that messageboard.
However, the facts speak for themselves. Jacques is without a drive as he has lost the respect of the people that can put him in an F1 car - simple as that. |
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The Figurehead
Superlicence Holder
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Athens, Hellas
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 14:10 Post subject: |
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Prost was left without a drive in 1992. 
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