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chinorenaultf1 F1 Driver

Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 904 Location: Guayaquil, Ecuador
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Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 07:55 Post subject: How was the 1955 mercedes allowed? |
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I think it was 55, but it was the car that looked more like a le mans sports car. If F1 has always been an open wheel championship, how come this model was allowed. Again, Iīm not 100% sure if it was in 55. _________________ Glory, glory, Man United, Glory, glory, Man United, Glory, glory, Man United, And the reds go marching on, on, on |
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It's Red Single-Seater Rookie
Joined: 01 Mar 2006 Posts: 123 Location: U.S.A.
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Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 08:03 Post subject: |
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It was '54 or '55. Sorry - I used to know why. I could look it up...  |
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D-Type World Champion
Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 2562 Location: Coulsdon, UK
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Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 15:19 Post subject: |
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It wasn't until the formula changed in 1961 that enclosing the wheels was disallowed.
The Mercedes was a single seater with the seat in the centre, not a version of the sports car (admittedly the 300SLR was very similar to the extent that it shared theW196 model designation). They only used it on the faster circuits and had an open-wheeled version that they used elsewhere. Contrary to what you may read in some places, the open-wheeled version was envisaged from the start and was not a hastily contrived modification following the 1954 Silverstone debacle. (Incidentally, Fangio's problems at Silverstone were due to the poor and inconsistent performance of the Continental tyres on a damp track and not due to his not being able to see the wheels - an early example of PR spin).
Other enclosed wheel streamliners in the fifties were
Connaught. After a reviewing the cost of accident repairs following a couple of incidents, Connaught redesigned the car as an open wheeler which was used to good effect by Tony Brooks to score the historic syracuse victory.
Cooper (1). Jack Brabham shoehorned a Bristol engine into amodified central seat 'bobtail' sports car in 1955
Cooper (2). At Reims in 1959 or 60 (probably 1960) Cooper tried a streamlined version of the Type 51 or 53 with a 'Monaco' front and a 'Bobtail' rear or vice versa. It practiced but wasn't raced because of aerodynamic instability
Ferrari. At Reims in 1956 a streamlined version of the Lancia-Ferrari with a wide nose enclosing the front wheels but the rears partially exposed appeared. It was only tried in practice and put away as it was no faster than the normal car
Maserati. They produced a fully streamlined 'Reims special' version of the 250F which also ran at Monza. I think this one was raced but by one of the junior drivers and not by Moss or Behra. One problem was that the bodywork fouled the throttle linkage so it couldn't use full throttle - typically Maserati produced the car in a hurry.
Vanwall. They practised a streamliner at the non-championship Reims GP in 1957. As Moss and Brooks were unavailable the cars were being driven by Salvadori and (I think) Trintignant. As they were trying to get to grips with the normal cars they only tried the streamliner in passing and foundit offered no real advantage.
The general feeling was that the weight penalty and the loss of brake cooling (important with drum brakes) meant that streamlining was only worthwhile at ultra fast circuits, ie Reims and possibly Monza. So the ideas were never fully developed, apart from Mercedes who had the German tradition of streamliners as a knowledge base. Significantly, nobody tried streamliners at Avus in 1960. _________________ The more you learn, the more you realise how little you know. |
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chinorenaultf1 F1 Driver

Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 904 Location: Guayaquil, Ecuador
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Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 15:50 Post subject: |
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thanx man. I did know about Mercedes using 2 models that year, it just struck me by surprise that it was so different from a traditional GP car. Thereīs a pretty cool video footage that they always show feraturing Fangio & his team mate (gosh I just forgot) going at it in a corner, very nice image. _________________ Glory, glory, Man United, Glory, glory, Man United, Glory, glory, Man United, And the reds go marching on, on, on |
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D-Type World Champion
Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 2562 Location: Coulsdon, UK
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Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 01:23 Post subject: |
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When I got in tonight I checked up on what I wrote earlier from memory. The Ferrari streamliner had the tops of the front wheels exposed while the Maserati had the tops of all four exposed.
The Cooper was in 1959 so it would have been a T51.
Also the Walker team ran cars with 'bolt on' fairings over the wheels in practice for the 1958 Reims Formula 2 race but discarded them as they made the cars unstable at high speed. _________________ The more you learn, the more you realise how little you know. |
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It's Red Single-Seater Rookie
Joined: 01 Mar 2006 Posts: 123 Location: U.S.A.
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Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 01:38 Post subject: |
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| Yeah, thanks, D-Type! That hit the spot... |
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gsmanzi World Champion

Joined: 19 Nov 2005 Posts: 2659 Location: Home again -after fishing!-
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Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 16:00 Post subject: |
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Hi D-Type!! Nice post! Congratulations! One minor detail: Fangio said at Silverstone 54' that he always choice an open wheel car, aiming with the wheels to the corner, driving better. |
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It's Red Single-Seater Rookie
Joined: 01 Mar 2006 Posts: 123 Location: U.S.A.
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Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 16:03 Post subject: |
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| But I believe he said that as part of the PR bit. |
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gsmanzi World Champion

Joined: 19 Nov 2005 Posts: 2659 Location: Home again -after fishing!-
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Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 19:32 Post subject: |
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Itīs Red said: | Quote: | | But I believe he said that as part of the PR bit. |
What???? PR bit?? What`s means?? |
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chinorenaultf1 F1 Driver

Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 904 Location: Guayaquil, Ecuador
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Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 19:36 Post subject: |
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It means publicity _________________ Glory, glory, Man United, Glory, glory, Man United, Glory, glory, Man United, And the reds go marching on, on, on |
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It's Red Single-Seater Rookie
Joined: 01 Mar 2006 Posts: 123 Location: U.S.A.
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Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 23:51 Post subject: |
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Yes. Fangio, I believe, went along with what his team said in their public relations (PR) spin on the quality of the tires. "Spin," in this case, being... a modification of the story from truth.  |
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gsmanzi World Champion

Joined: 19 Nov 2005 Posts: 2659 Location: Home again -after fishing!-
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Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 15:34 Post subject: |
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| Thanks for te advice, as you know my english is not the best! Could be true!. Mercedes Benz and specially Alfred Neubauer where masters to involved in secrets or hidden any failure. In some aspects where also pioneers in PR! |
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Rob Site Admin

Joined: 09 Mar 2004 Posts: 4361 Location: Christchurch Dorset
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Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 19:48 Post subject: |
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| Just by the by, I thought that part of problem at Silverstone was aerodynamic instability. |
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It's Red Single-Seater Rookie
Joined: 01 Mar 2006 Posts: 123 Location: U.S.A.
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 03:47 Post subject: |
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| Yeah. That seems to have been missed here. I also thought that was a big part of the equation. |
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D-Type World Champion
Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 2562 Location: Coulsdon, UK
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 23:16 Post subject: |
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It probably was. In 1955 although there was a good body of knowledge on aerodynamics, particularly in Germany, there were gaps and lift and the effects of yaw were not fully understood. The curve under of the body of the 'Disco Volante' Alfa Romeo, the D-Type Jaguar and the Formula 1 Connaught was an attempt to reduce susceptibility to cross winds. However producing straight line stability and automatic yaw correction by setting the centre of pressure behind the centre of gravity also induces aerodynamic understeer at high cornering speeds and angles. but such effects are progressive and any good driver could drive around them.
What happened at Silverstone was sudden changes in handling. I think that tyres were as much a culprit as aerodynamics. In 1954, Continental were breaking into racing and technically playing 'catch-up' with Pirelli. The conditions at Silverstone were particularly difficult. I don't know the full weather details but I do know that it was alternately wet and dry. Doug Nye's history of the British GP says 'Practice was dull and wet~' '~Saturday dawned wet and blustery, but the showers dissippated before the supporting events got under way, and by the time the Grand Prix grid formed up the circuit had dried although rain was threatening to return~' After fifteen laps it started to rain and as it rained harder '~ Mercedes were in trouble on the wet circuit with their new and under-developed Continental racing tyres~' 'While the Italian cars plumed on calmly and controllably through the rain, fangio was in deep trouble with his silver car yawing and bobbing through the corners'
What is certain is that the suggestions that Fangio had difficulty 'because he couldn't see the wheels to place the car' are absolute rubbish. For example he never hit a marker winning at Sebring, which was even more featureless than 1950's Silverstone and he never hit a wall or bank driving half the Mille Miglia with only one wheel steering to finish second. _________________ The more you learn, the more you realise how little you know. |
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